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Switch machine control

26K views 125 replies 19 participants last post by  CliffyJ 
#1 · (Edited)
I'm contemplating using the Piko switch machines, because of their good weatherproofing. The price is right (about $35), but they ream you for the optional DCC decoder (another $60) and relay contacts (and another ~$22+).

I don't think they're the "stall motor" type, because they can't take constant voltage being applied. On the other hand, I'm not totally sure if they're an instantaneous coil type (though there are coils in them, per their lit).

Question: has anyone found an alternate decoder that works well with these Piko machines?

BTW, I have a number of Train Li DCC switch drives, and the price is great ($45, DCC ready; and dirt cheap to add secondary relay contacts). I might just keep using them, but they're not sealed up at all like the Piko's. Anyone used both? Any opinions on other factors?

Thanks,
Cliff

[edit]

I just read that the NCE Switch-Kat ($20) is programmable for how many milliseconds its output stays on, so that's cool. True, I'd need a WP box & connectors, but they're cheap. Anyone hooked it up with a Piko?
 
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#2 ·
I've not investigated the Piko switch machines but I assume they're the same technology as LGB, ie. a reversible dc motor or equivalent?

For my LGB switch machines I've used NCE SwitchKat decoders, each one sealed in a small electronic project box. Here in the UK I found this to be a cheaper solution than the LGB or Massoth single channel decoders. They've survived well outside for a few years now, though on some I've recently removed the screw terminals which had rusted, and soldered wires directly to the board.






One day I must get hold of a Piko switch machine and try it with a SwitchKat. No reason why it shouldn't work in principle.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for the reply and the pics! And good idea, potting the **** out of it with RTV. I'm glad to hear they're still working well.

The Piko literature is pretty vague; they mention internal coils not being able to take sustained power, so that seems unlike my motorized Train Li units (which have an internal cutoff, once the switch is thrown). So I put one on order, and I'll report back on my findings.

Thanks again,
Cliff
 
#4 ·
Hi Cliff, I just purchased two Piko switch machines and two Switch KAT NCE decoders. The Piko machine is a coil driven design and the Switch KAT seems to handle them well. I have not installed them outside yet. I'm experimenting with them indoors and need to water proof the decoder. I found the decoder very easy to program, just attach a wire from PROG and GND and with the decoder track wires attached, push SELECT ACCESSORY, type in the address you want for that switch, hit ENTER then select 1 for NORMAL and you are done. It won't switch when you program it but just disconnect the program wire hit SELECT ACCESSORY, type the address you assigned it, hit ENTER then type 1 for NORMAL and it will switch. After this you can hit the SELECT ACCESSORY button and toggling it will switch the last addressed machine. The Piko switch tends to sit a little high and I had a problem with the steam gear on my Bachmann Connie hitting the top of the machine's housing. I made extensions out of ABS square tube from my local hobby shop to push out the machine about an inch and a half.

Technology Electronic device Automotive exterior Electronics Bumper


Steve
 
#5 ·
Great information, thanks very much Steve!

I went ahead and ordered one to test drive, so I'm relieved to hear your confirmation. Good tip on the extension too, I'll probably have to do that as well.
 
#6 ·
Cliff... I use the Crest Accessory Module to run my LGB 1201 switch motors... I believe the PIKO motors are most compatible....

Yes, it requires both the TX and Accessory receiver but they work very, very well....

I even run 2 motors from one output port on the receiver.... That way I can run up to 10 swtiches (5 pair)....
 
#8 ·
I've read this thread, and using an NCE system, throwing switches is dead simple.

I have the switch number on the "switch motor" on every turnout.

I have 4 year olds that have no problems lining up their routes.

And the revolution system needs more keystrokes to do the same thing.

I'd say your dcc system will do just fine once you try it out.

I'm using Digitrax DS-64 units powered from the rails.

Greg
 
#9 · (Edited)
Thanks Greg, looks like a great product. I'd seen it before, but didn't see till now that it handles both snap and slow motors. Even has route programming.

I just got my sample Piko unit in, and operated it (along with a ProDrive). The Piko is definitely snap-action coil-type (vs. the slow servo motor ProDrive). So, the NCE SwitchKat or Digitrax DS-64 should work with the Piko, while the ProDrive has a built-in decoder.

For route automation, I see that the DS-64 has up to 8 route programs (each controlling up to 8 switches), and is operated via the DCC system (no extra hardware). Alternatively, the NCE Mini-Panel has up to 30 inputs (say, for pushbuttons), each able to run a script of 4 commands (say, 4 turnout alignments). The latter would require new hardware, like boxes & buttons.

Still deciding on all that, but the Piko now seems less of a mystery.
Cliff
 
#11 · (Edited)
Right, solenoid valves. Very flexible control product. Do you use the route programming?

I just opened up the two machines, and thought I'd add some comparison commentary.

Footprint is about the same, though the Piko's mounting holes are a bit narrower. Height is similar, though Piko is slightly taller. If someone cares, I'll measure.



There's a big dif in sealing, as I've mentioned somewhere. Piko has a bellows around the throw bar on both sides, while the TL's throw bar is a plastic channel that isn't sealed at all. If it were a solid bar, it would plug up the rectangular opening some, but it's wide open between the channel's legs.

Further, the TL has two holes in the bottom; and since the box is stood off, bugs have an easy campground inside. Maybe the holes are for draining out the water that comes through the throwbar holes?



Removing the cover, you see the Piko has a rubber seal all around, while the TL has none. But, the TL board appears well potted.



This is a good place to point out the difference in motors. The Piko looks and acts like a solenoid-driven half-turn "motor". Never seen anything like it. The TL motor looks and acts like a mini (or micro) RC servo, including its 3-wire rc-type plug.

The Piko is about $35, the TL about $45. So far, Piko seems pretty good.

But, here's some electronic issues to factor in. The TL has...
- a built-in DCC decoder (works also with DC) (Pikos's costs about $60 extra)
- a built-in socket for driving an LED (when thrown to one direction; but not the other, as I recall)
- a place for an inexpensive SPDT microswitch for driving frogs or signals or whatever (Pikos's costs about $25 extra)

I don't have a spring scale sensitive enough to test this, but the TL seems to have much more push-pull force than the Piko. The Piko is easily flipped to the other side, while there's no way to do that with the TL (you can't back-drive the servo, but only press against the springs). So, I'll probably have to really keep the points clearer of debris for the Piko's than the TL's.

I have 10 TL's, and need another 10. Not a big layout yet. So maybe I'll get Piko's for my yard area, run them all with the Digitrax DS-64, and use the handheld to throw the TL's directly. And see how that goes for a couple years. Makes sense, and no wiring to speak of.

Oddly, I'm having a hard time saying adios to the button boxes, I've always liked the idea of switches on a graphic surface, don't ask me why...

Thinkin' out loud...

CJ
 

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#13 ·
This is a good place to point out the difference in motors. The Piko looks and acts like a solenoid-driven half-turn "motor". Never seen anything like it. The TL motor looks and acts like a mini (or micro) RC servo, including its 3-wire rc-type plug.

I don't have a spring scale sensitive enough to test this, but the TL seems to have much more push-pull force than the Piko. The Piko is easily flipped to the other side, while there's no way to do that with the TL (you can't back-drive the servo, but only press against the springs). So, I'll probably have to really keep the points clearer of debris for the Piko's than the TL's.

Thinkin' out loud...

CJ

The Piko motor is not a solenoid. It works using a bar magnet enclosed in a round plastic tube with a gear on one end and a locating pin on the other.

When the coils are energized they interact with the magnet causing the tube to turn, just like a rotary motor. The direction is determined by the polarity.

The gear at the end of the tube interacts with a linear gear cut into the bottom of the throw bar.

The metal surrounds that locate the tube's pin and gear to keep it centered have plastic spacers to hold them separated in position. These plastic spacers have "ears" that stick out where the to where the tube gear interfaces with the linear gear and a nub on the tube gear hits the ears to keep the motor from spinning more than ~90 degrees in either direction. When it hits the ears, it stalls so current should be released.

If there is no provision for the TL motor to be pushed to one side or the other, there are going to be LOTS OF DERAILMENTS from trains entering a trailing point turnout with the points set the wrong way. :eek:
 
#12 ·
I was just reading about macros for NCE systems, which apparently can serve the same purposes as the Digitrax DS-64. It seems also that the NCE macro can control all decoders in the system (not just the ones directly hooked to the DS-64). Am I understanding that correctly?

I clearly have a lot of things to learn in all this!
 
#25 ·
Macros are the way to go Cliff. The NCE systems works great with the Train Line drives.
My entire layout is macroed. I can send a train to anywhere on my layout with just a couple of entries.


I believe you can have up to 30 macros, each macro controlling up to 10 switches each.
This gives you just about unlimited possibilities.

I also liked the Piko switches and for straight DC they are a good value, but at $95+ each for standalone
DCC use they are way to expensive for me.

Ron
 
#15 ·
Hi Todd, thanks for the info. I should have used the term "coil," and my observations match what you've said.

The TL unit has springs in the throw-bar, which are a little stronger than the LGB's. A heavy loco will cut the switch, but lighter cars will derail when cutting. So, good point, perhaps that's a plus on the Piko side. Sounds like you've been using them?
 
#21 ·
I just saw an exploded diagram of the LGB 1201, and you're right, they're identical. So I won't bother with them. Saw the 1206 and accessories, and no real bargain there that I could see (vs. TL ProDrive or Piko+other decoder). But thanks for the idea; I'm looking under all the rocks I'm aware of.
 
#22 ·
Digg'n und'r rocks again Cliffy..!

..how exciting....

How about a lite spring between your turnouts an drives ..regardless of make!!
Protect your drives from erant rocks
Protect ya from derailYments..
Add a short offset spacer mount to gain room for it....

.... thoughts buddy....just ...
 
#24 ·
Good thoughts Dirk; I'd have to enlarge my "foundations" for the machines, I guess that's an option down the road.

I know exactly what you mean Todd. When the cover was off, the rack easily mis-registered from the gear. I didn't see any tabs, but I eventually got things re-registered correctly by trial and error. The bellows didn't interfere with this: the teeth seemed to slip very easily. Too easily; should have made them deeper.

Getting the cover off and on would be tough on the layout, because the screws can so easily get lost. Especially with my eyesight.

The rubber seal wanted to stick to the cover; and since it's one with the boots, it occurred to me that it might tear. Don't want that. Maybe some o-ring lube might be in order for that.

Cliff
 
#26 ·
Thanks for your confirmations Ron! And yes, the more I read about it, the macro's seem the solution for me.

I just read that the mini-panel can invoke command station macros (which the Procab can as well). So for starters I'll work with just the handheld, calling macros (and a cheat card, I have a hard time remembering numbers). And at a later time, add the mini-panel (I love Nick's little box!), which would call the very same macros.
 
#29 ·
First post asked for Alternatives, Stan is obliging. Cliff loves to touch every base, that's all.
John, the meddler.
 
#34 · (Edited)
BTW, Todd, I should have congratulated you earlier on your article. What a beautiful panel!

Did you have a write-up somewhere on your diode matrix? I've seen articles elsewhere on the subject, but I was wondering if you had written something yourself.
 
#36 ·
BTW, Todd, I should have congratulated you earlier on your article. What a beautiful panel!

Did you have a write-up somewhere on your diode matrix? I've seen articles elsewhere on the subject, but I was wondering if you had written something yourself.

This is where I learned it from. Funny thing is when I completed it, George Schreyer and his son came by and I showed it to them and his son asked George why mine was so "neat" looking compared to his.

http://www.trainweb.org/girr/tips/tips3/interlocking_tips.html
 
#37 ·
Hi Stan! :D

Todd, that's a great story. Yes, you DO have a very tidy panel!

Naptowneng / Jerry might be interested in this approach, so I was interested to see if you had done any writeups yourself. The one you mention is the main article I had read; very thorough. The other one I saw got into the matrix panel discussion a little more:

http://www.trainweb.org/SunriseDivision/handouts/Build_a_Diode_Matrix.pdf

With DCC though, I'll use the method Nick & I were discussing. Either way, fun stuff!

Thanks,
Cliff
 
#38 · (Edited)
Actually, I was referring to the diode matrix itself. I used a large piece of perf board. Lengths of 16 gauge wire were stripped of their insulation and the "verticals" were put on one side of the board and the "horizontals" on the other.

With the stripped wire, you just lay the piece out along your board, tuck the ends into holes at the ends of the board, pull it taught, and hit the ends with a touch of solder to secure them. This results in an easier (less "threading" of the wire) and cleaner setup.

So was it the red or the blue pill to get into the matrix?
 
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