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Old 02-21-2008, 10:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Looking for protype LNER Teak info

Greetings,

I am looking to get some protoype information for building my live steam Mallard rake.┬* Granted, it is OO, though being live steam, I think it qualifies for MLS.┬* Especially considering it will be running on an elevated track in the backyard┬* [img]/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/tongue.gif[/img]

The first question I have is...┬* What is the purpose of a brake car?┬* How many would have been on an 8-9 car┬*rake behind the Mallard running the teak cars between King's Cross and Grantham back in the day?┬* Here in the states, I've never encountered this during my research of US prototypes, so I'm baffled.

I have been gathering Hornby teak coaches from across the world, and I'm pleased to say I have 10 teak cars, and an old Pullman "Pheonix" Parlour car.┬* Some are here, and the last ones are in transit.┬* Without having them in hand and checking for sure, I think they are as follows:

2 full coaches
2 sleepers
1 oval ended window coach
1 Pullman "Pheonix" Parlour (not teak)
5 coach/brakes, hard to tell for sure from the photos.

Would the cars have diaphrams between them?┬* What would a prototypical rake look like from beginning to end, and how many brake coaches would be in an average train at most?

Also, any web sites than folks can offer for research would be most appreciated.┬* Seeing as I've recently settled in for a 16 hour shift┬*(and it is dead out there tonight), I'm sure I'll find some info in the next few hours.

Thank you,

Kent
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:27 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default RE: Looking for protype LNER Teak info

Kent take a look here,┬* http://www.lner.info/refs/books.shtml
The brake coach was where the Guard (conductor) had his┬* "cubby hole", it also carried important parcels and baggage.
The diaphragms wwere fitted to all corridor stock.
I'm sure some of my English breatheran will enlighten you more.
Hope that helps?
Rod
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Old 02-22-2008, 07:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default RE: Looking for protype LNER Teak info

Well... I am not ENGLISH -but I do have the information you require!!! LNER out of Kings Cross would have been configured thus:
A4 loco: brake third (guards towards loco), kitchen third, third restaurant car, open third, open third, open third, kitchen first, first restaurant car, corridor first, corridor first, corridor first, observation saloon.

Your chances of finding a proper "beaver tail" observation car however -remote!!!

regards

ralph

PS the information is from LNER 150 (I have all 4 in the series!)
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Old 02-22-2008, 07:45 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default RE: Looking for protype LNER Teak info

Ralph, thank you for that info so far. Ok, so I guess I'm not gonna have a true/factual rake at the moment.

A few qestions come to mind at this point. And unless some of you have knowledge oh HO/OO offerings, the answers I'm looking for may not be found on a large scale site.

Would the Hornby Buffet car fall into the kitchen or resturant catagory? www.hornby.com/passenger-rolling-stock/lner-corridor-buffet-r4173/product.html

Does anyone make an actual seperate teak resturant and kitchen car in HO/OO?

Is there anyone else producing HO/OO LNER cars to fill the gap?

What does a "beaver tail" look like, and where can I find one? (stop snickering, that isn't what I meant!)

And finally (until I come up with more questions) what is the LNER 150, and where can I get a peek at that info?
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:37 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default RE: Looking for protype LNER Teak info

Kent,

I guess you are aiming for this? [img]/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/w00t.gif[/img]



A few suggestions, from an old LNER fan.┬* The coaches in the above (recent) photo are restored by the LNER Coach Association, based on the North York Moors Railway┬*(my 'home' locale.)┬* Their website is www.lnerca.org/index.htm┬*and I'm sure they will respond to emails; especially if you join. [img]/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/whistling.gif[/img]

The distinction between kitchen, restaurant and buffet coaches was due to the nature of the train for which they were intended.┬* The Flying Scotsman (train - loco came later) runs London - Edinburgh (still - leaves Kings Cross at 10:00am as it always did.)┬* That's a long trip, so the passengers expected a full meal - hence the first and third classes both had a restaurant car.┬* On a shorter trip, a buffet car provided adequate facilities.┬* [Contrast this with the prevailing attitude in Washington towards Amtrak and food service - makes you sick with the stupidity of attitudes towards train travel.]

Grantham, by the way, is only a short hop north of London.┬* Mallard wouldn't be running London-Grantham, except as an intermediate stop on the way to York, Edinburgh, or somehere similar.

Next - their are two kinds of teak coaches: 'real' teak from the era of Sir Nigel Gresley (Chief Engineer of the LNER) and 'fake' teak - steel coaches painted to match the teak by Gresley's successor, Thompson.┬* The one you have with a round window is the Thompson kind.┬* Here's some from eBay UK :



As you can see,┬*Thompson also painted them┬*in other colors.┬* Also from eBay UK:



Finally, a Beavertail Observation Coach (sorry, that one is O scale!)┬* However, note that it is NOT teak.┬* There was a completely styled train called the LNER 'Coronation' that was streamlined to match the locos (like your Mallard, but actually starting with 60014 Silver Link a few years earlier - I think.)



Well, what fun I had on the 'net this morning.┬* Found you a real 'OO' scale Beavertail observation coach kit, from Cooper-craft's "Mailcoach" range.┬* www.cooper-craft.co.uk/00carriages.html┬* It probably arrives looking like this:



Cooper-craft also include a Restaurant/kitchen in their 'Kirk' range, which answers your question about who else makes OO/HO coaches.┬* [The HO is redundant, as no-one makes HO scale UK coaches these days.]┬* Bachmann UK makes an extensive range - that red/cream (commonly known as blood-and-custard) coach could be painted 'fake teak'.

LNER 150 is a book about the 150 years of the LNER:

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Old 02-22-2008, 08:49 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default RE: Looking for protype LNER Teak info

Pete, excellent. Thank you for the good news. That means I have nine Gresley teaks, one Thompson, and one Pullman Parlour. I'm doing ok. I'm gonna go check that web site in a moment.

I used to take this route from London to Thurso Scotland going back and forth from boarding school a few times a year. And as I research and plan more, my fiance' is getting very excited about it.

Pete, would it have been unheard of to see an A4 hauling a rake of various colored cars?
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default RE: Looking for protype LNER Teak info

Kent,

Keeping reading my post above - I've edited it several times with more pics.┬* [Got to get back to work!]

As far as hauling a rake of various colored cars, you really opened up a bag of worms there.

First - what color is your Mallard?┬* Blue or Green?┬* Blue was early LNER, dark green is the later BR style.┬* There's also a light 'apple' green used by the LNER but I don't believe Mallard ever got that, nor was it painted grey to match the Silver Link operation.┬* Green was post BR 1952.

Nothing wrong with running a Thompson teak coach in with the Gresleys.┬* It just implies it is┬*early-Thompson era, post-Gresley, i.e. post WWII.┬* The teak coaches were slowly withdrawn as they got older.┬* The Thompson coaches got painted BR colors (red/cream) after the nationalisation in 1952, but slowly, as they were overhauled.┬* You'd see teak and red/cream coaches running together behind a BR green loco for quite a few years.

What you would be most unlikely to see (and I've never seen a photo of) would be a Pullman coach mixed in with a regular train.┬* They were used exclusively in Pullman all-first-class trains.┬* While I'm sure that occasionally a regular coach would substitute due to equipment problems, it would be unusual.┬* Suggest you forget the Pullman!

I would think that Hornby Buffet car would be a sensible addition to your rake.┬* You would have a typical express passenger train heading for Doncaster or York, not a crack express going to Scotland.
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:53 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default RE: Looking for protype LNER Teak info

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Old 02-25-2008, 04:57 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default RE: Looking for protype LNER Teak info

Hi,

IF you can find the following books┬* 'Historic Carriage Drawings' by Nick Campling (ISBN 1-899816-04-6) or LNER Coaches by Michael Harris (don't┬* know ISBN), those are all about LNER coaches. The first one also has some of the coach drawings of the previous companies that made up the LNER, the second is mainly photos, with a few darwings..

The Buffett cars were built in 1933, to dia 167.┬*┬* Buffett cars were for the non restraunt cars trains not with restraunt cars ; they were also very vried in their components and there were two triplet sets (built 1924 to 1928) for prestige trains.

Thompson coaches were all steel and painted to resemble 'teak'.┬* Full brakes (luggage/parcel vans )┬* were still (built during the war) of wood however.┬*

Pullman in┬* hte UK was a extra fare (over 1st class) train that could include some 3rd class Pullman coaches examples are the Queen Of Scots or the Yorkshire Pullman, as Tac says all pullman only

The Coronation, and the West Riding were streamline trains that were (I believe) extra fare BUT not Pullman.

The LNER used Garter Blue, Green, and silver (& in the war (generally filthy) black!)for the A4's. Then BR used blue (as the above photo) and brunswick green for them. Tte side valances over the driving wheels┬* had by now been removed- this was done during the war to ease maintainance.


There was also a set of 'Tourist' coaches in green and cream jus for info! Used for holiday traffic and special excursions.


North Norfolk Railway has some photo of LNER coaches┬* web link is as follows┬*┬* http://www.nnrailway.co.uk/carriages.php; also there are a few on the North York Moors website but not much; thast is at

http://nymr.co.uk/
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Old 02-26-2008, 12:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default RE: Looking for protype LNER Teak info

I don't think we'll hear from Kent for a while... He emailed to say he'd got my First Aid package (4 LNER books, including Historic Carriage Drawings and Modelling the LNER.) Should give him something to amuse himself while the 911 biz is quiet.
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