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Old 11-13-2013, 10:33 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Self-Similar Pattern: G-Scale in a G-Scale Layout

This is one of those crazy ideas that folks like me wake up with in the morning and, while drinking coffee, keep thinking about, and finally just have to ask in a forum.


So ... i am totally new to large scale, and i don't know all of the fantastic history of this hobby and i don't know the answer to this question:

Has anyone ever built a large-scale garden layout in which the little figural people have built their own identically-modelled large-scale layout in their own little garden?.

I am NOT asking that the recursive mini-large-scale layout actually run around, only that it exists within an actual large-scale garden layout, which it models as a "prototype."

Yes, it would be very small. I get that. Very, very, very small.

Bonus question for the math-heads --

Exactly HOW small would it be at 1:22.5 or at 1:24 ?

(For instance -- and this is simply one example of how to pose the question -- how small would a Bachmann Annie pulling four Jackson and Sharp passenger/baggage coaches and a bobber caboose be at that self-similar pattern scale?)

If you have ever seen such a tiny self-referential train layout, or crafted one yourself -- PICTURES, PLEASE!

Thanks!
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:57 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default RE: Self-Similar Pattern: G-Scale in a G-Scale Layout

I've seen folks use Z-scale trains (1:220) as miniature backyard railroads, but at 1:22, they scale out to 1:10, so a little over twice as large as "g scale" would be in g scale (1:506). I've not seen anyone model a model of their own railroad, though that would be cool. I thought I saw video of working 1:400 scale trains, but I can't remember where.

Later,

K
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:18 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default RE: Self-Similar Pattern: G-Scale in a G-Scale Layout

Thank you, K / East Broad Top!

I carried this post over to Facebook, and received this reply there from an HO scale modeller friend of mine; he does not mention the starting scale, but he gives us a name ...

Charles Porterfield wrote:

*holds his head till the recursive images stops* Yes, it has been done in the 50's by one of the greats of Model Railroading : John Armstrong

Does that ring a bell with anyone?
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:19 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default RE: Self-Similar Pattern: G-Scale in a G-Scale Layout

Well there is 1:480 scale made by Arthur Sherwood of Sydney, Australia.

I also remember seeing a picture in a GR issue in the past year or so of someone who built a garden railroad for their garden railroad. Does this ring a bell for anybody else?
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:37 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default RE: Self-Similar Pattern: G-Scale in a G-Scale Layout

Jack Verducci (sp?), a frequent contributor to Garden Railways magazine, built a Z scale layout in shallow a terra cotta planting pot. The miniature layout represented one of the ride-on scales, complete with an engineer figure astride the locomotive. There may also have been children straddling some of the cars. Jack would take this layout outside on operating days, where it was placed near one of the houses on his garden railroad and operated. He did not leave it in the elements at all times.

There was a photo of it in an issue of GR, but it has been many years since that issue was published.

I have seen others that used N scale equipment to represent amusement park trains on indoor large scale layouts.

Best I can recall at the moment,
David Meashey
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:40 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default RE: Self-Similar Pattern: G-Scale in a G-Scale Layout

I have used "Z" at shows, but never incorporated it outside. My thought is that it would have to be portable, because none of it is weather proof. A dog, deer, or any other two or four footed creature would (could) damage the track.

Chuck



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Old 11-13-2013, 12:06 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default RE: Self-Similar Pattern: G-Scale in a G-Scale Layout

Has anyone ever built a large-scale garden layout in which the little figural people have built their own identically-modelled large-scale layout in their own little garden?.
As Kevin said, making a garden railroad in a garden railroad using Z scale is not uncommon. The Mason Dixon G scalers, who exhibit at the B&O Museum at Xmas, have a module like that, with an extensive garden modeled with lots of euro trains - I have a photo somewhere. 1:10 is a reasonable scale for a ride-on garden layout, and there are some steam engines in Z scale. The ride-on scale for narrow gauge is larger - 2 1/2" scale or 1:4.8 - so an Nn3 steamer is a reasonable size. I have a photo of an Nn3 K-27 on he running board of a Fn3 K-27 somewhere.

There is also the T scale products from Japan, which are 1:450 ( http://www.tgauge.com/ ) ( http://www.t-gauge.net/available.htm ) from Eishindo. This is a 1:22.5 ratio of T (1:450) to F scale. Unfortunately they haven't produced anything but electric/diesel locos.
Intriguingly, Eishindo (I think) produced a version of their tiny diesel configured as a ride-on model, along with some large scale riding carriages. It was sold as a fairground attraction train, I think. But it was O-scale ? Still close enough to be usable.
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Old 11-13-2013, 12:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default RE: Self-Similar Pattern: G-Scale in a G-Scale Layout

A little bit more googling and I found this cute little railroad. Again, not a model-of-a-model, but it shows what you can do.

"Eishindo T-Gauge Garden Railway Suitcase Set" is a fairground ride in a suitcase using 1/32nd scale figures and details. (Not O-scale!)






The attache and railroad is special order set # S-002 and sells for about $300 if you can find one.


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Old 11-13-2013, 12:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default RE: Self-Similar Pattern: G-Scale in a G-Scale Layout

"G scale for your G scale!" T gauge with LGB Toytrain Porter. I bought a T gauge set when they first came out, as a bit of fun!

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Old 11-13-2013, 01:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default RE: Self-Similar Pattern: G-Scale in a G-Scale Layout

If you want to get technical..
T gauge, at 3mm, is the smallest commercial model railroad gauge available today. That's exactly 1/15th of G gauge (45mm). To make an exact model of a G gauge layout using T gauge, the larger layout would have to be a 1/15th scale layout - reasonably close to 7/8n2. Thus, in theory, you could make a working scale model of a 7/8n2 layout as part of the layout.

Until somebody comes out with a smaller working model railroad scale, a fractal layout would have to be static for any scale smaller than 7/8n2. I would suggest 3D printing as the most practical way to do it today.

And in case anybody is interested, the math is simple. The scale of a given fractal layout is an exponential function of the scale. The first iteration is the scale squared, the next smaller version would be the scale cubed, and so on as far as you care to take it. For 1/24, that means 1/576 and 1/13824. For 1/20.3, it's 1/412.09 and 1/8365.427
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