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Old 08-24-2009, 07:33 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:53 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Default RE: wiring reverse loops

Posted By eheading on 24 Aug 2009 07:17 AM
I gotta say, following this thread, it's the best advertisement for battery power I've seen in a long time!!





Really!
I tried battery power about 5 years ago and found it much too restrictive in many ways for my liking.


As I mentioned earlier - for any of the option discussed here one does the wiring once - so I don't see this as an issue at all.
But each to his own.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:01 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Default RE: wiring reverse loops

I have to say this is the best advertisement for DCC and autoreversers.

DC track power reversing loops have always been a bugaboo.

I guess I owe you one in a battery only thread huh Ed?

Don't complain the next time I do this in a battery thread.

Greg
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Old 08-24-2009, 10:26 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Default RE: wiring reverse loops

Cross over threads...been done already.. Marty's Q was in bat power.....

I agree with Ed, my spring switch eliminates all extra wiring. A plus as my ground is hard and very rocky, no digging for conduits, required because local pack rats love to eat wires.

Greg, your electrical engineering education makes DCC far simpler for you than most of us... perhaps I wouldn't be as leery if I had your education.

Disclaimer: Because I use a floating battery and track power I can post wherever I want! neener neener! (the kid in me)

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Old 08-24-2009, 11:34 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Default RE: wiring reverse loops

Actually the autoreverser is so simple it's ridiculous... just put it in line with the power to the reversing section. No knowledge needed. That's why George said it was simple.

It's actually simpler than many of the "new" systems, but there is an entire contingent out there that make it a "fear and doubt" situation.

I have DCC, DC, Aristo TE (old style) Aristo TE (Revo), AirWire, NCE, and QSI at my house right now.

I can speak from using them all.

All my friends are not electrical engineers.

To get up and going on all 3 systems is pretty fast, but honestly, I can bring up a person on DCC track power faster than anything else, it's less steps. AirWire is second, especially if you use the new NCE throttle and a QSI, a little more time for using the AirWire receiver and a separate sound card.

I had someone across the country running DCC in 15 minutes flat from ground zero, talking him through it over the phone.

So, people that bang a drum really should have experienced all the options before condemning anything else.

That's all I am saying... people have complained that I "invade" a battery thread with track power... well here is the battery power invasion of track power... so what is the difference?

It's a forum, you can say what you want... but support statements with fact, not a hidden agenda to convert everyone to the Aristo TE and battery power.

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Old 08-24-2009, 12:28 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default RE: wiring reverse loops

Posted By krs on 24 Aug 2009 08:53 AM
Posted By eheading on 24 Aug 2009 07:17 AM
I gotta say, following this thread, it's the best advertisement for battery power I've seen in a long time!!






As I mentioned earlier - for any of the option discussed here one does the wiring once - so I don't see this as an issue at all.
But each to his own.




Agreed. Do it once and it's done! If you can follow a road map and use a soldering iron, you can wire a reverse loop using any of the included diagrams. After that the only thing to do is be sure that the engine has a magnet stuck under it.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:54 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default RE: wiring reverse loops

Posted By toddalin on 24 Aug 2009 12:28 PM

After that the only thing to do is be sure that the engine has a magnet stuck under it.


I never liked the magnet under the loco and reed switch concept too much.

Works great, but if anyone ever comes over to run their train on such a layout and their engine doesn't have the magnet attached - well, then of course none of this works.

We often visit other layouts with our equipment, so for me this is always a consideration - but it doesn't seem that common that people run their equipent on someone else's layout.

Anyway - keeping with the "Traditional DC" subject, has anyone ever seen or used the functional equivalent of magnet/reed switch by cutting a double insulated gap in one rail to provide a trigger point that way?
That would eliminate the dependancy on magnet/reed switch completely and any circuit driven by that arrangement woiuld be compatible with any engine as long as it has metal wheels.

Knut
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default RE: wiring reverse loops

Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 Aug 2009 11:34 AM
Actually the autoreverser is so simple it's ridiculous... just put it in line with the power to the reversing section. No knowledge needed. That's why George said it was simple.


Every once in a while I think: "Why can't one design an auto-reverser like that for analog power?"

Even though the total powering concept is very different between DC abd DCC, this module in principle would work the same way.
First metal wheel passes the insulating gap, creates a short, auto-reverser flips the polarity of the section that has the reverse polarity.

There was a unit like that many moons ago called Polator. I managed to find one on ebay several years back but I have never seen a recent one for Large Scale.
There was one for the smaller scales, but somehow this unit never caught on.
Don't really know why.

Greg - which auto-reversers are you using?
I'm always a bit leery of the ones using relays to switch polarity (probably most of them) since there will be some short circuit current for 20 msec or so until the relay operates.
Some auto-reversers are fully solid state - they switch in Microseconds.

Knut
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:44 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default RE: wiring reverse loops

Posted By krs on 24 Aug 2009 12:54 PM
Posted By toddalin on 24 Aug 2009 12:28 PM

After that the only thing to do is be sure that the engine has a magnet stuck under it.


I never liked the magnet under the loco and reed switch concept too much.

Works great, but if anyone ever comes over to run their train on such a layout and their engine doesn't have the magnet attached - well, then of course none of this works.

We often visit other layouts with our equipment, so for me this is always a consideration - but it doesn't seem that common that people run their equipent on someone else's layout.

Anyway - keeping with the "Traditional DC" subject, has anyone ever seen or used the functional equivalent of magnet/reed switch by cutting a double insulated gap in one rail to provide a trigger point that way?
That would eliminate the dependancy on magnet/reed switch completely and any circuit driven by that arrangement woiuld be compatible with any engine as long as it has metal wheels.

Knut




Simple matter to use a piece of double-sided tape to stick a neodymium magnet under the engine and only takes a moment.

As for the second part, yes, I did this years ago and documented it on this site (as well as the other one). (See the Tortoise Bump Accident Sentinal System (Bump A.S.S.) schematic for control of red/green LED signals adjustable to any time length starting from either the first wheel to pass or last wheel to pass.) It works with any engine or rail car with metal wheels and has served me faithfully for years protecting my 30 degree crossing. (Just try to do that with battery power!)



In fact, using the Lizard Loop Reverse methodology, this could be done in this instance. The +6 volts that goes to each of the reed switches would jut need to be attached directly to the rail itself. The "sensors" are simply a short piece of track that is just long enough to fit in the void space created by two back-to-back AristoCraft/LGB track insulators. The short piece of track situated between the insulators would have a wire soldered to it and this would be the switched wire that would come off of the reed switch to the relays in the schematic. A track-to-track jumper wire would also be soldered around the "sensor" to ensure track continuity.

That's all it would take. The only caveat (and the reason I don't do it for my leap frog), is that every metal wheel will activate it. So in the case of the reverse loop, it is a simple matter of placing the "sensors" farther apart than your longest train. The reason it doesn't work for a leapfrog situation is that after the first weheel passes and activates the system, the second wheel passes and shuts it down before the train ever gets away.
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:07 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default RE: wiring reverse loops

Knut, I have no clue why someone does not do it for DC... I have a theory, that it's much easier to power from the AC of DCC than straight DC, maybe something to do with latchup of a transistor that is being used for a relay, sort of... but I really cannot understand why it's not available.

I use the DCC specialties stuff, the PSX-AR... it comes in several flavors, some with optional extras like like switch controllers. I like it because it is programmable, both with jumpers and/or DCC commands, it is fast, but it is also one of the highest power units I have found, will run over 10 amps. It also does not false often. Mine has been trouble free, and my friend, who I introduced to DCC over the phone has 2 of them, again, trouble free. No relays of course, you would not want something like this running with relays, chatter and just the speed issue would not be good.

(note for anyone misunderstanding my comment: an autoreverser works by sensing a short because of wrong polarity, you want it to switch really fast, as not to disrupt any communications or other trains, so I am NOT denigrating relays, or Todd's creative use of relays).

Regards, Greg
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